Vineacity Revision Proposal II: Badges

as a matter of fact, I recently found myself full of free time... so yes, I'm busy... with Vinecast on Monday.contact me with details as to what you had in mind (outside of what you posted in an article)

I figured you'd respond as such... and you have a great idea. We both agree on the what, but apparently no the how.

The primary caveat I see in your initial idea here is that it seems more of a 'let me collect as much meaningless @!$%# as I can", which while fun to an extent, also in the end bloats a system (not that my latter portion of the idea doens't, but not as fast).

If you abandon the linear process then there is no structured progression. I battled for days, through gallons of coffee and packs of cigarettes (gross, I know), on whether a I felt a linear, abstract, or circular structure would best serve the community. At this point I still think linear structure with a hint of abstraction on the side would work best. Users need direction around here - especially new users. I mean, isn't part of hte point to retool the structure so that it is effective in the context that the community has grown? I'm not saying that the custom badges is a bad idea - I actually want that too, but I wanted to allow users to create and dispense them individually to reduce the load on Newsvine, but also allow Newsvine to have a ahnd in implementing worthwhile user rewards. I think this would also give the community a bit mor faith and trust in the system than some do. This would be the abstraction. The users get to choose who gets an achievement for what becusae it is the users the steer the content (hence user content driven) into what they feel is important at the time. I dont' recall a lot of travel articles being posted during the 2008 elections, did you?

The final 10% of these, however, replace the RAV. All current RAV winners would get custom badges commemorating their achievements, and these would be displayed above all of the other badges. It should be really @!$%#ing special to earn a custom badge - it should be something that only YOU (or maybe a small group, depending on the context) have, and nobody else will ever have one. Something that someone took time to design to commemorate something you did. That's pretty rad.

I may not have expressed this very clearly, and if I didn't I'm sorry, but that's basically the idea. The RAV earners get a one of a kind badge created by either them or the NV staff (probably the NV staff for visual consistency). I had originally put up a custom RAV badge for the RAV I got, but sea fearing server ninjas infiltrated picassa web and removed it, then stealthy pirates stole it from them and sold it to a band of dinosaur riding cowboys from a different time space, and unfortunately by the time I realized it I found out that the princess was yet, in another castle. (read: I got too lazy at like 2am to really give honest thought to how I wanted to do that for myself let alone anyone else for a conceptual image)

So that's how I'd do it. Do away with tiers, do away with linear thinking - I feel like that doesn't help. The basic, by-the-numbers awards should be plentiful and a new user should expect to unlock them regularly as they go along in order to generate interest.

This reads a lot like dungeon grinding to me. Granted, the tier system is in a way the same 'by the numbers' set up, but the latter part of your statement if I read it correctly is exactly what I'm saying - new users should expect to unlock all of the bronze medals within a few months. They feel as though they've done something but... pushes them depending on their drive, to unlock more and become more productive community members. Too much abstraction ends up being too much like the overwhelming "Eldar Scrolls IV" ... what I think we need is "Fallout 3" where there are definate linear structures and a defined path to the top, but enough freedom that you can collect a lot of cool perks that augment that path through abstraction. In short, I think too much option and open-ended travel leads no where, "where am I going?", "What the point or purpose?". What happens after a majority of users get the '50'?

But yeah, the money in this concept is really in the custom badges for cool stuff. You could also do custom "event" badges - everyone who goes to a specific vinemeet, everyone who participates in some charitable project, everyone who puts effort into a collaborative online activity, etc.

Isn't that what most RAV's have been given for? Do y ou think that might devalue the existing RAVs? Clearly not somethign that would be advantageous, but I get your concept and That's exactly what the user created badges are.

Also, abstraction is found in the idea of "cool stuff"... what is 'cool stuff'? Well, for me it might be the entire idea of "webwork" being successful as a NV group and the members would (since it is a private group) have their own badge. With that, you could see a few potential issues - like... what if Conservative Coalition made a badge all their own? It's West Side Story all over again (without the singing and dancing... and it wont be in Hell's Kitchen), the same potential exists for any partisan group.

So, yes, we disagree but not as much as you might think...

It's only complicated in explanation really. In practice its not requireing anything all that different.

thanks. the RAV isn't so much about attitude - its about action. So, you can be 'sweetly stern' to yoru hearts content and not be writ out of RAV as a contender. It's really not a bout how popular you are with the people, becuase I'm not exactly popular, just that some people know who I am.

Sara,

I both appreciate and understand your view on this. In actuality, I think everyone competes to somedegree; if not with others then themselves. We're always trying to do better at something for some reason and I think that the idea, irrespetive of how it is implemented promotes that.

I did not intend for it to be seen as leaning more on the gamer side of things, though that was the best way to put it. I'm not always clear in my ideas and I understand that at times things come out a little jumbled. When I write out an idea, it comes out in one of two ways. The first way is like a ball of yarn, slowly and neatly unwinding... the other way is like a fast and hard tug.. .where the ball of yarn doesn't get to neatly unwind in spots... I think to an extent this came out in the manner closer to the latter.

Per your statement about it turning into a competition, people do that now, so this isn't going to alter that in any way. I hope to redirect it into being beneficial to the community and... for the lack of a better term, socially engineering people to think in a direction that while some may be hyper competative, will always in the end help someone else out, even if by nothing more than example by base action. Perhaps the level of participation in the vine is good enough for you, and I get that by tiering it, a negative effect could be had as well (i.e. you can be seen as less valuable to the more comeptative types becuase you're only a bronze level person), and I agree. These things can have a negative effect as well. I thank you for pointing the hole int he strategy out here becuae now I can go back and try to combat this at the conceptual stage of the idea and return with a few possible solutions.

On the other hand, seeing this plan as something negative is to imply that a majority of users would use this for a negative gain (so to speak) and I think that we've got enough community members to thwart that as they see it happen. If not, there's always an opportunity to do so. I'm not saying "so what" in so many words, but I am saying that the liklihood of it being taken overboard is in my opinion, very slim (but it is just my opinion).

I'll give your words here some serious thought and try to come up with a way around the potential problem. Thank you again.

@SW

Shawn, could we have levels of participation? I like the vine and it is enough for me. I see no reason why any of us could not achieve the RAV. But for those on a higher, more competitive level, once they fill the vine they could go to the badges or bars. I think it is important to include those of us who are not so serious or educated in the battle. But to exclude us would be potentially missing out on raw talent.

I think that if it reduced to RAV awardees the drive to get a RAV increases. This is good. The down side of this is that when you have the highest award available now being awarded to a LOT of people (with merit of course) then the value of that award declines because of how common it is. This is bad.

Also, if custom badges were open to only RAV winners then the custom bades or uniqe badges, while being of a new level of importance on par with RAV, would be so limited that the only people eventaully caring about the unique badges are those who have them - or - an outbreak of hyper competativeness would surface and it becomes a game of badge harvesting. Clearly something based on selfishness and goes against what the now devalued RAV actually set out to promote.

if your ideas are incorporated into the Vine...I'd be happy for those that were able to reach the heights...I would just hope that those that did not, for one reason or another, would not lose their readership or their standing, or the value of their opinions all due to the color of the badge they displayed.

I think inter-community "badgism" would be dealt with like any other 'ism' on Newsvine. They'd be ostrasized and heavily scolded. While it may seem that for every 10 troll-esque users that pop in and act, as Viki Ballbles Gonia would say, "like an asshat" there are 2 angelic users... fortunately those angelic users tend to carry a bit of clout and not because they've done this or that, but becuase of the examples they set.

I can't seem to get past the idea that to be imbalanced is to be in motion. Things in life attempt to balance themselves and when imbalanced units on one side jump to the other to harmonize. Usually though, too many units switch sides and the balance shifts... and the cycle repeats... and stays in motion. If it was perfectly balanced, there'd be not motivation to move in any direction... it's stagnant. So in this case, I think slight imbalance is a good thing but... precautionary measures would be in place to ensure that the attempt to balance is perpetual. That precautionary measure would be someone like... maybe you - who isn't all the time as active as a gold level user, but the your actions would be noticed in time and this is where the custom badges come into play. Sure, you're a bronze, but damned if you dont ahve a handful of custom badges for concerted efforts to improve and balance the vine that most gold members dont. Right there is your little equalizer. Does this make better sense in application now?